On a classic ID the Future episode, philosopher of science Paul Nelson concludes his discussion with host Andrew McDiarmid about what it takes to converse effectively with scientists who are trapped in a naturalistic parabola — that is, researchers who draw their conclusions from naturalism’s authority rather than following the evidence wherever it leads. Nelson urges us to keep the third party in the conversation: nature herself. We listen to nature through experimentation, he says, and warns against the message from scientists such as Caltech’s Sean Carroll who have suggested that testing is “overrated.” If we listen and test, nature can keep revealing herself in surprising ways, which is what makes science so fun. Download the podcast or listen to it here.