Robert R. Redfield, interviewed by Wesley J. Smith, was Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from March 26, 2018, through January 20, 2021. The Covid pandemic was ramping up during the latter part of his tenure and he believes that internal politics forced him out.

From January 20, 2021, through December 31, 2022, fellow immunologist Anthony Fauci was Chief Medical Advisor to the President (Joe Biden), a position which is now vacant. Fauci was also part of the White House Coronavirus Task Force.

His history in immunology on behalf of the government spans half a century; he first made his name in the AIDS crisis. As both crises fade, he has come to seem a somewhat controversial figure — a “polarizing figure,” as he puts it.

In his discussion with Smith, Redfield talks a bit about what what working with Fauci during those years was like.

He begins by reflecting on his immediate post-CDC years, working with Governor Larry Hogan (2015–2023) of Maryland on the pandemic:

Redfield: To his [Hogan’s] credit, really pretty much by the end of January in 2021, we had everybody in our nursing homes vaccinated that wanted to be vaccinated. Everybody. And we saw the hospitalizations and death in their nursing homes plummet. It just really all disappeared.

But then around April, May, I saw that we were starting to see our hospitalization rates from nursing homes go up. So I said, “Hey, I don’t think this vaccine is lasting very long.” And so we did a study of about 750 people and looked at the immunity that they still had from the vaccine.

We saw that over half of these individuals no longer had measurable immunity, and that’s why they were getting sick again, and that’s why they were dying again. So I suggested to the governor, we need to revaccinate everybody. This vaccine isn’t lasting.

Herd Immunity Claims

Redfield: Of course, my friends at CDC and FDA and NIH all argued against me and said, “There’s no reason to do this. These people have been fully vaccinated.” And I said, “Well, they don’t have immunity now and they’re getting sick again and they’re dying.”

Smith: This brings up something that I think really hurt the public health sector, as well as the individuals engaged: The government did not trust people with information.

Redfield: That’s right… I remember my colleague, Tony Fauci, who was a big advocate of herd immunity, was telling people initially 30 percent will be over and then at 50 percent herd immunity, the pandemic will be over. And then he said, 70 percent of the pandemic will be over.

And a reporter said, “Dr. Fauci, can you tell us the new data that you have for why you changed your opinion from a couple months ago when you said 50 percent, now you’re saying 70 percent?” And Tony said — and it’s all on tape — Tony said, “Well, there is no new data. When I said 50 percent, I said it because I didn’t think you were ready to hear 70 percent.”

Smith: See that kind of paternalism really is destructive. It’s very destructive to trust.

Redfield: Yeah. And I said, “Tony, you just have to tell the truth.” …

I told Tony,  “I don’t know. The answer is, I don’t know.”

I told people, because I’m a virologist, I always felt from watching the interaction between Covid and the human body, it was very likely that — and other coronaviruses — that herd immunity did not exist for this virus. It’s not going to happen. We’re going to constantly have people get infected. They’ll be protected from infection for some short period of time, and then they’ll be susceptible again. And then they can get reinfected and then they’re protected for a short period of time. And then they’ll get reinfected. That herd immunity was not operational. And of course, eventually the scientific community came to my conclusion about two and a half, three years later. But relying on herd immunity was a big mistake.

Smith: Is that something unique to the Covid virus, that herd immunity doesn’t [exist]?

Redfield: No. There are many viruses that you don’t really get herd immunity. A lot of respiratory viruses, you don’t get herd immunity. But there are viruses you do get herd immunity…

And the Vaccines?

Redfield: No, I’m just saying I’m still an advocate of both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine. I helped develop them. But I just think the Novavax vaccine’s a better way to go.

Smith: If somebody’s harmed by a vaccine, I know they cannot sue because of the law, which encouraged the production of vaccines. But there is a fund, isn’t there, for people who’ve been injured?

Redfield: It is. Not too many people have accessed it successfully. I’m not an advocate of that rule anymore. I think that we should — and I’ll be advocating that we should — restore product liability for vaccines. It can have a capitation on it, like cap it to $250,000. But I do think our immunity for vaccine injury isn’t really helping us.

[Note: One such program is the Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund.]

Smith: That’s going to be an interesting public policy debate, I think. Because you’re going to have, of course, the trial lawyers wanting it, the defense lawyers not wanting it, the insurance companies not wanting it. Ralph Nader wanting it. I’m a colleague. I’ve written books with Ralph. So it’ll be an interesting discussion to have, and I think an important one. How can we best make sure people get vaccinated — and perhaps if they knew that, if they were injured, they would have more ready access to remediation, they would take it.

Redfield: … It’s going to be a big debate, as you said, in finding the right way to do it. But I think it also, unfortunately, doesn’t help vaccine acceptance, which I think you and I agree that vaccines are one of the most important gifts of science to modern medicine. And we have to help the American public learn the value of vaccines for them and their life.

Smith: And we have to respect them enough to give them the actual information, not just dictates from on high.

Redfield: Let them see the information. And I think you’ll see that, Bobby Kennedy when he is Secretary of Health — and I’m pretty confident he’ll get confirmed — I think you’ll see one of the things he’ll do with the FDA is to open up transparency on vaccine safety and efficacy data so people can actually see it. Some people felt, with me, that they didn’t want to talk about — well, even CDC stopped recording cases after I left of Covid in patients that were vaccinated.

Their argument was, well, if people thought that you could get Covid, even if you’ve been vaccinated, it may get people less interested in taking the vaccine. I argued just tell people the truth.

Smith: Yeah. Well, people found out and then they became not only less interested, but they became skeptical of everything the government told them.

Redfield: That’s right. I said, “Just tell them the truth.” Same thing came with vaccine injury. You saw the recent announcement that the FDA didn’t want to release the safety data on the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines until 2026. Why?

Smith: Yeah, why not do it now?

Redfield: And the argument is that some of the policy people and some of the names, they felt that if the safety data got out, it may get people reluctant to take the vaccine…

Editor’s note: See also, “Former CDC director discusses the Covid years: What worked, what didn’t,” Robert Redfield’s surprising earlier interview with Wesley Smith. It shows that there was significant opposition within the agency to the vaccine mandates. He talks about how Americans were sometimes misinformed on critical issues like whether the vaccines prevent Covid.

Cross-posted at Mind Matters News.