On a new episode of ID the Future, philosopher of science Paul Nelson concludes his discussion with host Andrew McDiarmid on what it takes to converse effectively with scientists who are trapped in a naturalistic parabola — that is, researchers who draw their conclusions from naturalism’s authority rather than following the evidence wherever it leads. Download the podcast or listen to it here.

Nelson urges us to keep a third party in the conversation: nature herself. We listen to nature through experiment, Paul says, and he warns against the message from scientists such as Caltech’s Sean Carroll who have suggested that testing is “overrated.” If we listen and test, nature can keep revealing herself in surprising ways, which is what makes science so fun.